CNN-IBN Published on September 12, 2007
'The poor and shirtless of Pak are my strength'
Is former Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto making a mistake talking to President Musharraf? It was one of issues raised in a special interview on Devil’s Advocate with Benazir Bhutto.
Karan Thapar: You have been talking to General Musharraf for a year, for the last six months there has been speculation that a deal is in the offing, yet it has not materialised. Will it or won’t it materialise?
Benazir Bhutto: The Pakistan People’s Party and I have been in a struggle for the democratic rights of the people and we have been exploring whether a transition to democracy can be made through the holding of free and fair elections open to all political parties and political leaders. We haven’t still come to a point where an agreement can be reached. Many people in his party are against the democratization of Pakistan.
Karan Thapar: Are you hopeful that there will be an agreement or are you beginning to feel that there won’t be one?
Benazir Bhutto: We are running out of time as elections are coming up but the window is not completely shut.
Karan Thapar: So the window is still open?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes.
Karan Thapar: In the belief that the window is still open, for four decades the Bhuttos have been identified with democracy and being opposed to military rule. You have been to jail in that course and your late father paid with his life. Why, today, are you negotiating with an army dictator?
Benazir Bhutto: That is a good question because people should realise that we have used every platform for our people and their democratic rights: whether it is the platform of the streets, Parliament or dialogue. I want to remind you that General Zia-ul-Haq went and visited my father in 1977 to seek political settlement. My father met him but did not agree to the dictatorship. I haven’t agreed to the dictatorship either. My husband spent eight years in prison. I, too, could given foreign guarantees and had charges against me dropped and lived in comfort. I chose to face the consequences of opposing a military dictatorship. Let’s make this clear: it’s all for democracy and people’s rights.
Karan Thapar: Your critics in Pakistan turn around and say, 'This is just for herself'. They say you are just courting General Musharraf because you are desperate to get the corruption charges against you dropped.
Benazir Bhutto: : Well, that's wrong, because if I just wanted the corruption charges dropped, there would be no problem, would there? They would be only too happy to do it, just like they dropped the corruption charges against Nawaz Sharif and limited his sentence. If it was an issue of just charges, they would have been dropped and my husband and I would have led a smooth life with our three children. But we didn’t, we were buffeted by storms because we stayed true to the people of Pakistan.
Karan Thapar: But what about the second criticism made that you are extending a lifeline to a sinking dictator. Arguably, Musharraf would not be able to retain his presidency without your party and your support. So at this moment, when he is anyway on the run and falling, why are you supporting him?
Benazir Bhutto: I think the question needs to be reframed because we are not supporting him. We are supporting a transition to democracy and the holding of fair elections and electing a viable Parliament.
Karan Thapar: Can I quote to you what you said to the Sunday Times in Britain just six weeks ago on July 22? You said, ‘Musharraf has lost his moral authority. His popularity ratings are down and it would be very unpopular if we saved him and would lose votes if we are associated with him.’ But that is exactly what you are doing. You have reversed your view. Why?
Benazir Bhutto: I don’t reverse my views, Mr Thapar. I have a very clear mission of where my party and my country should go. I don’t support uniformed presidency. When I was asked a question related to uniformed presidency, is said it was not possible for us. He is very unpopular and that is what the International Republican Institute polls also show. Pakistan is an important country. It is facing a threat from within and it is very important for us to move in a manner that can get the country elections. This dialogue of ours on democracy has precluded at certain critical moments so far the imposition of emergency in country.
Karan Thapar: You are suggesting that the deal that’s in the offing is in the interest of Pakistan but your own party workers, when they found out that you were talking to Musharraf were perplexed and disheartened. Even newspapers like The Daily Times, owned my members, supporters and former MPs of your party say you have gone soft and have compromised.
Benazir Bhutto: People are entitled to their opinion and at the end of the day you have to be judged by your people and the forces of history. The people of Pakistan support me. The people in my party believe in my leadership and if any of them were disgruntled they would not be applying to me to give them tickets in the forthcoming the general elections. The very fact that there are so many people interested in obtaining the tickets from the PPP shows that the PPP’s struggle for democracy is understood by the people of Pakistan. The PPP’s mission to eliminate poverty and unemployment and control inflation is understood by them.
Karan Thapar: Those are of course noble sentiments and any politician would express them.
Benazir Bhutto: I don’t think all politicians express that.
Karan Thapar: Most of them do.
Benazir Bhutto: I don’t see that. Most of them talk about a power struggle and lifelines to dictators. People don’t really talk about suffering.
Karan Thapar: People say Benazir Bhutto is doing this under American pressure. She is obliged by the George Bush administration to extend a helping hand and therefore she has come under American pressure.
Benazir Bhutto: I am not under American pressure. I am under the pressure of the people of Pakistan who want their social, economic and democratic. Certainly, General Musharraf is a key ally to the US in the war against terrorism. The US has interest in the stability and welfare of Pakistan. But I am a Pakistani leader and I have been lobbying very hard for Washington to review its policies and support the democratic process in Pakistan.
Karan Thapar: You say you are a Pakistani leader and you are. Yet, Richard Boucher was in Islamabad over the weekend, John Negroponte will be there on Wednesday, they are all lobbying for this deal. To Pakistanis, it suddenly looks as if you are an American ally. Aren't you endangering your independence and credibility by this close association and this impression that you are under American pressure?
Benazir Bhutto: I know that some people are trying to create this impression, but it's wrong. The Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Mr John Negroponte and Ambassador Boucher have visited Pakistan many times because Pakistan is a key ally in the war against terror.
Karan Thapar: Now they are lobbying for you?
Benazir Bhutto: That's what you are saying. I haven't heard from them.
Karan Thapar: That's what the papers are saying.
Benazir Bhutto: I think that is wrong. It's a smear campaign that is being carried on by fearful political leaders. I want you to wait till you get the fact which is that Pakistan has a situation the tribal areas. NATO troupes in Afghanistan are being persistently attacked by pro-Taliban forces who run across the border into our area. America has threatened to take uni-lateral action. There are very many issues.
Karan Thapar: So this allegation embarrasses you?
Benazir Bhutto: It does not embarrass me but I think what you are trying to do is to cover up the fact that there is a war going on and you don’t want me to talk about that. Whenever Mr Boucher has been to Pakistan he has met with Maulana Fazul Rahman and leaders of the MMA. They have gone to Washington. Washington is the world’s only superpower. It is giving Pakistan $10 billion in aid and I am not at all embarrassed about the fact that I am a Pakistani leader who can speak up in the US about the need for democracy in my country and I have been doing that. But the reason people speak to me is because I am the majority leader of the people of Pakistan. The poor and shirtless people of Pakistan who many would like to ignore support me and they are my strength.
Karan Thapar: The worst outcome of the talks that you are having with General Musharraf regardless of whether it would lead to deal or not…..
Benazir Bhutto: Don’t use the word 'deal' because a deal means two parties or two people coming together under hand. People ask why didn’t I make a deal. They ask why didn’t I make a deal when my husband was in prison facing the hangman’s noose.
Karan Thapar: The worst outcome of this association whether there is conclusion or not, is that in contrast and comparison to your great rival, Nawaz Sharif, who today looks like a champion of democracy. He has gone back to Pakistan and faced up to arrest. The Pakistani polls today are suggesting that he is the most popular leader in the country. Aren’t you losing out in comparison to him by trying to find a sideways entry back home?
Benazir Bhutto: The answers must be longer than the questions so you will indulge me as I answer you. Mr Nawaz Sharif has compromised his position by involving Saudi and Lebanese leaders to get out of prison. People contrast that with the heroism shown by my husband and my family in resisting the temptation to run and have charges against us dropped. We have stood up for the people of Pakistan and the political system. Polls show that the Pakistan People's Party and I are most popular leaders in the country. Yes, more popular than even Mr Nawaz Sharif
Karan Thapar: Are you more popular than Nawaz Sharif even after his return and arrest?
Benazir Bhutto: Of course, that is what the polls show Mr Nawaz Sharif compromised his political position and now after I announce that I would be going back between September and December and after of the struggle of the lawyer showed that the chief justice of Pakistan is independent. Mr Nawaz Sharif chose to go back but when the judiciary was under pressure, when there was no hope of getting any relief from them and the days were dark and dismal. Those were the days when PPP workers and other democratic forces stood the ground and kept the torch of democracy alive.
Karan Thapar: You have frequently suggested that the understanding that you are about to reach with General Musharraf is in the best interest of Pakistan. Why is it in the best interest of Pakistan that General Musharraf should continue as President for another five years?
Benazir Bhutto: I think that it is in the best interest of Pakistan that the people of Pakistan should elect their leaders, that there should be a civilian President who does not wear a uniform and that there be credible elections in which the people get to elect a representative government to deal with their problems.
Karan Thapar: If all of that may happen without your being involved, how does your involvement make this more likely?
Benazir Bhutto: That is not true. That is absolutely not true. It think that it was the involvement of the Pakistan People’s Party through dialogue and street pressure which has lead to a particular situation Pakistan.
Karan Thapar: Do you mean with that pressure General Musharraf would still be retaining his uniform not even talking of shedding?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes, I think that if the pressure of the Pakistan People’s Party as well as of the other democratic forces would not be there then the Chief Justice would not have been reinstated. That was a very critical point on our country’s history.
Karan Thapar: Did you play a role in the reinstatement of the Chief Justice?
Benazir Bhutto:My party was very critical.
Karan Thapar: What about the fact that people say that Benazir Bhutto is the one person who ensures that Musharraf gets five years as President? Without her support and without the understanding it is the end of Musharraf, but she ensuring that he survives?
Benazir Bhutto: I don’t agree with that assessment. I think General Musharraf could be replaced by another General. I don’t believe that the jehadi forces are in the restoration of democracy. The jehadi force that the destabilised the PPP government in 1996 made sure that when Mr Nawaz Sharif was removed there was martial law so PPP would not go down.
In Pakistan it is a battle between dictatorship and democracy but it also battle between moderation and extremism.
Karan Thapar: Which is the more important one?
Benazir Bhutto: They are both important.
Karan Thapar: At the moment you seem to be supporting the survival of a dictator in the belief that he is liberal like you.
Benazir Bhutto: I don’t believe in the survival of dictatorship. I believe in democracy. There have been contacts in 1999 that have not led to an agreement. Mr Nawaz Sharif did sign an agreement with Saudi and Lebanese guarantees and he left. If I had done the same democracy would have died in Pakistan and we would be in a situation like Husni Mubarrak.
Karan Thapar: So in other words, by accepting exile and not doing a deal, you have kept the flame of democracy alive.
Benazir Bhutto: My husband was in prison so I didn’t accept the exile. I went into exile myself and it was not a comfortable exile. There was once a time when I was dragged from one courtroom to another, I had litigation, I was slandered in the press, I had Interpol notices and I could hardly go from airport to airport without knowing that I would be arrested. If I too had said why should I be troubled and thought of my self then there would have been no democracy today in Pakistan. I have fought for the democratic rights of my people and I am grateful to the people of Pakistan who support me despite the propaganda of my opponents.
Karan Thapar: The challenge that now lies ahead of you is this- without an understanding will you return? You will be arrested like Nawaz Sharif, you could face trial or you could end up in jail. Will you return of you don’t have an understanding?
Benazir Bhutto: Yes. I will return. I announced on January 5 of this year that I would be returning to Pakistan and whether there is an understanding or not. The reason there has been no understanding to date is because I have refused to accept anything for myself. I have been fighting to get something for the people of Pakistan. Through this process of dialogue, I have insured that the elections that were promised in Pakistan not be derailed. There could have been an emergency and there could have been an imposition of martial law, but during these critical months from January to September, we have averted such a disaster and we have done so because we always kept the doors of dialogue open for a peaceful political transition towards democracy in our country.
Karan Thapar: My last question is that is there an outer date by when you will be back on Pakistan soil?
Benazir Bhutto: My party intends to announce the date of my return on September 14. We want to announce it from the soil of Pakistan.
Karan Thapar: And what ever that date is, you will abide by it, you won’t change it.
Benazir Bhutto: I don’t change dates. There has been no dates announced so far because when a date is announced, the date is implemented.
Karan Thapar: Thank you for talking to us.
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