Karan Thapar: Interview with Nawaz Sharif

CNN-IBN Published on Sunday , September 09, 2007

'Politically, Musharraf is breathing his last'

Will Nawaz Sharif return to Pakistan on Monday and if he does what sort of future does he face? These are the two issues Karan Thapar explores in a two-part interview on Devil’s Advocate with the former Pakistani prime minister.

Karan Thapar: Mr Sharif, on Sunday evening will you be on a plane going back to Pakistan or will you at the last moment duck the challenge?

Nawaz Sharif: (laughs) Well, we have booked the flight on September 10 and we have every intention now to go to Pakistan especially after the Supreme Court judgment. We want to go back as early as possible.

Karan Thapar: So, on the 10th morning, which is Monday, Nawaz Sharif will be standing on Pakistani soil.

Nawaz Sharif: Hopefully.

Karan Thapar: When you say hopefully does that mean…

Nawaz Sharif: Hopefully means Inshallah.

Karan Thapar: Is it in God’s hands or yours?

Nawaz Sharif: First God and then of course in our hands.

Karan Thapar: Am I detecting any doubt or are you sure in your mind that you are going?

Nawaz Sharif: (laughs) Do you have doubts? What makes you believe that?

Karan Thapar: I’ll tell why I say that. General Pervez Musharraf has sent emissaries to King Abdullah in Saudi Arabia to ask him to persuade you not to go back. Are you under pressure from the Saudis to reconsider?

Nawaz Sharif: I think Musharraf is running here and there trying to pressurise anybody that he can. The Saudis are talking to me. I am grateful to the Saudis for thinking of me in difficult times. I have told them what is happening in Pakistan and what Musharraf is up to and how he is destroying institutions one by one. I also told them how he dealt with the Chief Justice, which is one of the major institutions of Pakistan.

Karan Thapar: Quite right, but what did the Saudis say when you told them this?

Nawaz Sharif: I have told them and also explained this. I am in regular contact with them. Looking at the situation in Pakistan I also have to think about my country. Pakistan needs me today.

Karan Thapar: So, the Saudis are happy if you go back?

Nawaz Sharif: Well, I don’t see any problem.

Karan Thapar: No problem. It’s said in Pakistan that if you arrive you could be put on the first plane and deported to Saudi Arabia. And a Saudi spokesman has said that were you to arrive in Saudi Arabia in those circumstances you would find it’s a very different country and your welcome would be different. Does that worry you?

Nawaz Sharif: I don’t know what is the source of this news. I haven’t read that.

Karan Thapar: SPA news agency came out with this a few days ago.

Nawaz Sharif: It is without any source.

Karan Thapar: So, you are not deterred, worried or concerned?

Nawaz Sharif: Musharraf is threatening me with dire consequences. Sometimes he says that he will take me to jail from Islamabad Airport. Then sometimes the news comes that a cell in the Attock Fort is being prepared for me. So, all these stories are coming out in the press. I watch them on television but I am not deterred.

Karan Thapar: So, what you are saying to me is that even at the risk of being deported to Saudi Arabia on arrival in Islamabad and even at the risk of being sent to jail you are going back and you will be in Pakistan on Monday morning?

Nawaz Sharif: Yes, yes. My flight is booked which takes off on September 9.

Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this - you may go to jail, you may get deported but if you don’t, how confident are you that you will be permitted to contest elections? This is because the Pakistan Attorney General has gone on record to say that as a consequence of your conviction, in what’s called, the plane-hijack case you have been disqualified under Article 62. Does that worry you? You may be able to go back but still not function as a politician.

Nawaz Sharif: The Attorney General is in the habit of saying all sorts of contradictory things. So, I have no faith in his statements or any government spokesman. They are all the time saying the same things again and again. So, I am going there to restore democracy in Pakistan. Dictatorship has inflicted so much damage to the country that it’s beyond any imagination. I would say that my primary task is to restore the law of the land.

Karan Thapar: I want to talk about the sort of Pakistan that you want to create but one last question before I switch to all of that. I hear in you determination, I see in you firm resolve but you still have 48 hours between now and Sunday. In those 48 hours the pressure on you to change your mind, whether it’s from the Saudis or your family because you may end up going to jail, will grow. Will Nawaz Sharif under pressure change his mind?

Nawaz Sharif: The family is highly supportive of my decision. My friends and my party, the All Parties Democratic Movement is supportive of my decisions and they all support that I come there on the 10th.

Karan Thapar: If today, tomorrow or day after, perhaps even as latest as Sunday morning King Abdullah rings you personally and says Mr Sharif don’t do it. Will you say to him ‘your majesty this is something I have to do, I am going back’ or will you say to him ‘alright, as a favour I agree.’ Which will you say?

Nawaz Sharif: (smiles) You are asking very strange questions. Well, I have told you, I have explained it to everybody and my Saudi hosts. And I will explain it to him also if it comes to a telephone call.

Karan Thapar: So, Monday morning you will be in Pakistan.

Nawaz Sharif: Inshallah.

Karan Thapar: In that case, let me put it like this - you are going back to Pakistan after almost seven years. Your party has split in your absence, if elections were to be held within weeks how confident are you that you can actually win those elections?

Nawaz Sharif: The party is not divided, it is intact.

Karan Thapar: A large section moved across to the PML-Q and are now with General Musharraf.

Nawaz Sharif: There are a few individuals but not the party. The rank and file of the party is intact and so is the vote bank. The support of the party in the masses is also intact by the grace of God. So, therefore it is a very vibrant party. According to the three latest polls conducted by national and international agencies our party is at the top and the second party is far below as compared to our party. The track record of our party is that we have won three consecutive elections in the country.

Karan Thapar: But can you win the one that lies ahead. Seven years you have been out of the country and some of your top leaders have switched to Musharraf’s side. The government itself will be working against you. Can you in those circumstances…

Nawaz Sharif: Many of them who have switched over to Musharraf’s side are keen to come back to our party.

Karan Thapar: They have been in touch with you?

Nawaz Sharif: They have not directly been in touch with me but with my responsible people. We don’t want them back. They are more liabilities than an asset to our party. We do not want them at any cost. Yes, we might accept some of them back who are willing to stay away from the election of the President, who are not willing to vote for him in case he seeks an election in the current Assembly. So, we might consider them.

Karan Thapar: In the elections that happen you are confident that your party will be united and it can win, but you have a big opponent in former prime minister Benazir Bhutto. The two of you represent civilian democracy in Pakistan. Will you unite to fight together to defeat dictatorship or will the Pakistan Peoples Party and Pakistan Muslim League fight each other and split the opposition?

Nawaz Sharif: It’s a very good question and I would have really welcomed that. We buried our past and made a new beginning. I and Benazir Bhutto sat down and signed a charter of democracy, which very clearly says that there can be no parlance, no negotiation or deals with dictator. We have got to struggle for undiluted democracy in Pakistan. We will struggle for the restoration of the 1973 constitution.

Karan Thapar: Are you saying that she let you down? She backed out and betrayed the charter of democracy?

Nawaz Sharif: Yes, she took the other course. She joined hands with Musharraf. They have agreed on a deal and this document (charter of democracy) very clearly says that there can be no give and take with dictators. So, it’s very unfortunate that the give and take is taking place.

Karan Thapar: So, there is no question of an alliance between your party and Benazir because she is the one who has broken the relationship.

Nawaz Sharif: Not at this stage. We both put our signatures in this document and I couldn’t have imagined a violation of the document. I stand by the document even today. But she chose to go the other way.

Karan Thapar: Can I ask you something? Do you feel let down?

Nawaz Sharif: Well, in a way yes.

Karan Thapar: Do you feel betrayed?

Nawaz Sharif: No, I don’t feel betrayed. I am dismayed and disappointed. And I think any democratic party that believes in democracy must never think of going with a dictator or strengthen his hands because at this time when the dictator is on his way out, let me say that Musharraf’s government is a sinking ship today, so it amounts to lending a hand of support to a sinking ship.

Karan Thapar: You are fighting the dictator while she is supporting the dictator.

Nawaz Sharif: Politically speaking, he is now breathing his last. And at this juncture if anyone of us tries to support Musharraf then I think it will be very wrong on our part.

Karan Thapar: So, therefore what you are saying for the foreseeable elections which are coming that there is no question of any alliance with Benazir. She has gone her way and you are going yours.

Nawaz Sharif: Let us see what happens in the future. Let us first send the dictator home. First we need to bring democracy back to Pakistan and then there are many other things we can jointly do in Pakistan. That’s for the future, not for now.

Karan Thapar: Now let’s talk about the sort of democracy you want to restore in Pakistan. In the political set up as you envisaged is there room for General Musharraf if he takes off his uniform as president?

Nawaz Sharif: We don’t accept him, neither in uniform nor otherwise. He is not acceptable. I think the civil society, political forces and lawyers community have demonstrated that.

Karan Thapar: The American government believes that Musharraf is critical to the war on terror and many Western governments share that viewpoint. How would you handle the enormous pressure from the West to find a role for Musharraf?

Nawaz Sharif: I think Pakistan has to make its own decisions independently without any foreign pressure. This is what I believe in. Musharraf needs the threat of terror for his own survival. And I think it’s about time for the foreign forces also to review their policy to support Musharraf. They cannot equate Pakistan with Musharraf. Pakistan is Pakistan and Musharraf is Musharraf. They have to be clear about the fact whether they want to support democracy or dictatorship. There can’t be a patchwork of democracy and dictatorship.

Karan Thapar: You are sending a message to US President George Bush as well. You are saying to him ‘you mustn’t support Musharraf at the cost of good relations with Pakistan and its democracy.’

Nawaz Sharif: It is aerating the 160 million people of Pakistan the present Bush policy. And Pakistanis feel dismayed and disappointed on the policies being pursued by Mr Bush to support one man against the wishes of the 160 million people. Unfortunately this is giving rise to an anti-American feeling in Pakistan, which is not good for the relations of the two countries.

Karan Thapar: And if push comes to shove, you will explain it in this way to George Bush?

Nawaz Sharif: Why not?

Karan Thapar: Even if there is no room in the set up that you envisaged for Musharraf do you think you need to find an institutional role for the Pakistan Army. A role perhaps in the National Security Council?

Nawaz Sharif: To answer your earlier question when former US president Bill Clinton came to Pakistan on a state visit, and by then Musharraf had staged a coup against my government, he publically refused to be photographed shaking hands with Musharraf. That is the message he gave to the world.

Karan Thapar: And that’s what you are going to say to George Bush. Clinton’s way of treating Musharraf is the way George Bush should adopt.

Nawaz Sharif: Exactly.

Karan Thapar: Even if there is no room for Musharraf in your system, what about room for the wider Pakistan Army? Do you think there is a need with experience in mind to institutionalise its role perhaps in the National Security Council?

Nawaz Sharif: No, Army has no role in politics. According to our constitution they have their own role and that is their domain. They must not step out of their domain and meddle with politics. At the time of taking a commission in the Army every officer has to take an oath that they will not indulge and involve in politics and will abide by and uphold the constitution of Pakistan. Also obey the government’s orders, which has been defied by Musharraf.

Karan Thapar: You will enforce this if you become prime minister?

Nawaz Sharif: Yes.

Karan Thapar: You will enforce total civilian control over the Army?

Nawaz Sharif: Absolutely and that is how the country can survive.

Karan Thapar: Including the Army budget?

Nawaz Sharif: The budget will then be taken out of Parliament, debated, discussed and then approved.

Karan Thapar: Many Army generals may not like that.

Nawaz Sharif: Doesn’t matter. What happens in India? I think Parliament decides and approves the budget of the Army, not the Army itself.

Karan Thapar: What about the Fauji Foundation? What about all the business activities, direct or indirect, that the Pakistan Army is involved in? Ayesha Siddiqui has written at great length about the separate structure of the economy run by the Army.

Nawaz Sharif: All these things will need to be looked into. And then the decision will be made after consulting Parliament and political parties of the country because if we are to eliminate the menace of military dictatorship for all times to come in Pakistan then we will have to take some major decisions.

Karan Thapar: But in this major decision you could be taking on the Army. Do you think you are stepping one step too far. You are threatening the very generals whose support and loyalty you need.

Nawaz Sharif: No, I think it’s going according to the law and constitution of the country. I am not doing anything, which other democratic countries have not done.

Karan Thapar: And you think it will work in Pakistan? You don’t think you will invite a backlash?

Nawaz Sharif: It should work if we are to have a long-lasting democratic system in Pakistan. We need to follow the example of other democratic countries and our Army or politics is no exception.